Christianity & Culture with Kierstyn St. John
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Kierstyn St. John is the founder of the Christian jazz pop duo, Zoetic, who’s music is available on all streaming platforms.
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Christianity & Culture with Kierstyn St. John
Jordan Peterson’s purposeful evasion of Christianity
Jordan Peterson has become enormously famous over the last several years and for good reason. He’s incredibly intelligent, insightful, well spoken, and courageous. But is he a Christian? I don’t think so. He purposefully evades the claims of the faith. And today I’m going to talk about it.
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Jordan Peterson has become enormously famous over the last several years, and for good reason. He's incredibly intelligent, insightful, well-spoken and courageous. But is he a Christian? I don't think so, and today I'm going to talk about why. Today we are going to be analyzing a couple of clips of Jordan Peterson talking about Christianity. First it's going to be a video that he made with his friend, jonathan Pajot, and then it's going to be his interview with atheist YouTuber Alex O'Connor, also known as Cosmic Skeptic.
Kierstyn St John:And people might be wondering why am I doing this? Mostly because people are drawn to Jordan Peterson's intellect and I know I am but I don't want people thinking that his views on Christianity are actually Christianity. The way that he looks at Christianity is dangerous to some degree and certainly overcomplicated. Also, the other reason is because I don't think Jordan Peterson will ever see this, but I genuinely do want him saved. His wife and his daughter seem to have actually converted to Christianity. I believe his wife is a Catholic and his daughter is more non-denominational, but regardless, they are within Orthodox Christianity and I genuinely want Dr Peterson saved, you know. So that's part of the reason I do want to analyze both of these interviews. So I think we're going to start with the interview he did with Jonathan Pajot, both of these interviews. So I think we're going to start with the interview he did with Jonathan Pagiot. And the first reason that I don't believe that Jordan Peterson is a Christian is because he complicates, he overcomplicates simple concepts and questions. So this is clip one on that.
Jordan Peterson:People say to me what do you do, you believe in God? And I think, okay, there's a couple of mysteries in that question. What do you mean do, what do you mean you, what do you mean believe and what do you mean God? And you say, as the questioner well, we already know what all those things mean, except belief in God. And I think, no, if we're going to get down to the fundamental brass tacks, we don't really know what any of those things mean.
Kierstyn St John:I just think that that is vastly overcomplicating things. I don't think in every single question that somebody asks, you need to say what do you mean by this first word, what do you mean by the second word? What do you mean by the third word? Like there are just some things that are evident and if it's still unclear, it feels like you're intentionally obfuscating right, like you don't want to answer the question. He also tries to kind of answer this in this interview with Alex O'Connor, so I believe this is where he People say ask me, for example, do you believe in God?
Jordan Peterson:And I think, well, I don't know what you are driving at with that question, because I don't know what you mean by believe. Most people, modern people, believe that a belief is a description of accordance with a set of facts. Sure Right. Well, I don't think that's what belief means in the religious sense in the least. So I just think that's a non-starter.
Jordan Peterson:It has something to do with what you act out right. It has to do with what you're, what you believe is what you're willing to die for. Fundamentally is what you're committed to or live for, if you think about it as life in the most extensive manner.
Kierstyn St John:It's a matter of commitment. So Jordan Peterson defines belief as something you are willing to die for. And this is important because in Romans 10, 9, it says because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So it's really important to know does belief mean something that you will die for? So in Greek, belief means I believe, pestoisis. I may have pronounced that incorrectly, but to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit or to place confidence in Belief implies worship, especially if you're believing in God. Belief implies obedience, but nowhere in the text does it say that in order to be saved, you you have to die for jesus. Now, jesus died for us and I think I would love to say that, as a believer, as somebody who believes in the core tenets of christianity, if put in that position, I would die. I would be willing to die for my Lord. I can certainly hope that that's the case, but the issue is that we can fail Jesus, but he will never fail us.
Kierstyn St John:Think about Peter. Peter denied Jesus and it was under threat of death. He denied Jesus three times. In these circumstances, was Peter not truly a believer? Was Peter truly not saved? No, he did of course believe that Jesus Christ was Lord. He made some significant mistakes and was sinful, like all of us are, but Peter avoided dying for Jesus. But to say that he didn't actually believe is silly. Of course he did, and so Jordan Peterson is trying to redefine the word belief. But we just read what it means to think, to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, to place confidence in. That is what the Greek for that word means. And so it doesn't really matter what Jordan Peterson thinks belief means. It matters where we get that from in scriptural text, and it's a lot simpler than how he's making it. Then he's pressed by Alex O'Connor in this interview by trying to get him to say that the resurrection actually happened. So let's go to that part in the video.
Alex O'Connor:And that's a problem too, because it means it's also susceptible to multiple interpretations, including potentially competing interpretations, I think a lot of people interpret Poole, for example, the earliest New Testament source, as saying that if Jesus did not literally rise from the dead, if there was not a man who stopped breathing and then started breathing again, then your faith is futile and you're still in your sins. That is, christianity is undermined. Now that means that and Paul doesn't say sort of believing that that's false is really bad. He says if you do not believe this proactively, then your faith is futile.
Alex O'Connor:That's the problem I have with that If you don't proactively believe that yourself, then I think when a Christian asks you, you know, do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus, are you a Christian? I think you must be committed to saying no, at least under that interpretation of Paul. And even if you're not sure, I mean it's fine if I say to you do you think that a man, physically, in a different sense, or it happened, in the sense that good fiction happens, then fine, but it needs to begin with that caveat of the simple sort of historically speaking. I don't know, and I know you don't like to pull out the historical Jesus from the mythological, but it's an important question to ask.
Jordan Peterson:No, of course, it's a very good objection. So I just did a seminar on the gospels with a crew of about eight people and it was the same crew that walked through Exodus with me, with a couple of variations, and we spent a lot of time on the resurrection accounts, for example, and of course that was the toughest let's say that was the toughest morsel to chew and digest. The thing about the resurrection accounts is that they're all look, so I could say something like this, which will just annoy people, but it doesn't matter. I believe the accounts, but I have no idea what they mean.
Alex O'Connor:When you say you believe the accounts, do you mean and I hate to be sort of pedantic here, it seems pedantic, but do you mean you believe that these are things that happened, such that, if I, that's a?
Jordan Peterson:strange thing, I know you don't like that.
Alex O'Connor:Let me put it this way If I went back in time with a Panasonic video camera and put that camera in front of the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, would the little LCD screen show a man walk out of that tomb?
Jordan Peterson:I would suspect yes.
Alex O'Connor:So that to me seems like a belief in the historical event of the resurrection, or at least of Jesus leaving the tomb. Which means that when somebody says, you know, do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, it doesn't seem clear to me why you're not able to just say it would seem to me, yes.
Kierstyn St John:Because I have no idea what that means, and neither did the people who saw it Okay, so that was kind of a long clip, but basically Alex O'Connor does a really good job here of pressing Jordan Peterson and saying do you believe the literal events of the resurrection of Jesus happened. And apparently Jordan Peterson doesn't like the word happened. I don't know why that is, but Jordan Peterson ends up saying yes, yes, but I don't know what that means, jordan. What that means is that everything that Jesus said about himself was true. That when Jesus said I am who I am, that when Jesus said that he is God and that he is the son of man, that all of that was true, because no one has ever been able to resurrect themselves. But if Jesus can do that and he made that biblical prophecy about doing so right rebuilding the temple in only three days was talking about himself. About doing so right, rebuilding the temple in only three days was talking about himself, about the resurrection that means that he is God in the flesh. That's what that means, and I know that Jordan has to know that right. So why is he moving off of the point? It's again Jordan Peterson is brilliant. Jordan Peterson is way smarter than me. I feel like I'm out of my league making this video, to be honest with you, but he, with how much he's studied scripture, has to know that the Bible clearly states what it means that the resurrection of Christ occurred. It means that Jesus is God, that he is the one way of salvation, that he is the truth and the life, that nobody comes to the father except through him. I just don't understand why he keeps deviating from that. If you really believe, jordan, that the resurrection happens, then you need to believe what the rest of the bible says about why that is important, and the bible has a lot to say about why that's important to. To clarify the point one more time Jesus's resurrection means that Jesus is the Messiah, the long-awaited Messiah, that he is God incarnate, the only person who could be the only perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind. The Bible is not unclear about this.
Kierstyn St John:In Jordan, peterson's definition, faith is made near impossible. Belief is complicated, you know, beyond belief instead of simple, and Luke 18, verses 15 through 17, is really important, I think, when it comes to this, people were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them, but Jesus called the children to him and said let the little children. Come to me and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to these. Truly, I tell you, anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
Kierstyn St John:Okay, do children have the concept of belief that Jordan Peterson does? No, children cannot conceptualize dying for something. It would be silly to take a child and say, oh, do you believe this? Are you willing to die for it? Of course, nobody would ever say that to a kid, right, and kids wouldn't be able to conceptualize that right. So then, why is Jesus telling people to have faith, to have belief like a child? It is truly simple, and when you overcomplicate it, you make it tougher for other people to become Christians, and that is a major issue that I have with it. This is the second reason why I am skeptical that Jordan Peterson is actually a Christian. There is an adversarial attitude towards other Christians that I feel like he has, and so I'm going to play this part of the Peterson O'Connor interview and give my thoughts on it.
Jordan Peterson:The Christian trolls. When they ask that question and it's often the Christian trolls who ask that question what they mean is are you in my club? Exactly Right? And my answer is I'm not even sure you know what club you're in. So there's a trap in the question, which I don't appreciate, because I don't like questions that have traps in them. Now, not everybody who's asking that question has a trap, but many people do, and so I find that off-putting, let's say, because it's manipulative.
Kierstyn St John:So, by the way, to give a little bit of context to that, what question is he referring to? He's talking about Christians that ask him if he's a Christian. Basically, when Christians ask him if he's a Christian, he thinks that what they're trying to say is, are you in my club? And that they're being manipulative. And then he insults Christians who say that by saying I don't think you even know what club you're in, which is very condescending.
Kierstyn St John:Jordan, have you ever thought that maybe the reason Christians ask you this the majority of them is because they want you saved, that they actually believe that Christianity is true and therefore, that you know they want to make sure that you are going to heaven and that you are saved? That is the main reason that a Christian would ask you that question. It's not just about you being in their club. And again, the fact that he thinks of Christianity as a club, like almost like a political organization, that's not what Christianity is. It is so, so much more than that. And so it's not just about them knowing they can identify with you. It's about them actually caring about you and actually caring about your soul, and so I do not like this way that he talks about other Christians and again, true Christians would not be doing this. True Christians don't talk about other Christians in this way, in this adversarial way. He does this again at the 20 minute 40 second mark in the same interview.
Alex O'Connor:Yeah, I have no dog in this fight. I'm not a Christian, yeah, but I know that a lot of Christians are frustrated when they begin asking about Jesus, who's a much more physical entity. It's a real human being. It's someone flesh and blood. It's someone who's physically crucified by the rent.
Jordan Peterson:It's a very different question.
Alex O'Connor:It's a very different question and then is seen as a physical entity, at least according to the canonical tradition, by his disciples after he died. So when somebody asks you, do you believe that that happened? And when I've seen you ask about that question, you tend to still speak in terms of the psychological and the mythological, I think the frustration is that, as you've just said, these are two different conversations.
Jordan Peterson:I don't mind frustrating Christians in that regard either, because the truth of the matter is, with regard to the gospel accounts, that the mythological and the historical are inextricably cross-contaminated. Sure, there's no pulling out the historical Jesus, right? That, just that's that's.
Kierstyn St John:And you dodge the question and avoid the question often when the historical question is brought up, or you just kind of say I don't know what the significance of that is. Also, just again, this adversarial attitude saying that you don't mind frustrating Christians. Well, you should mind that. I just don't think that Jordan Peterson is like almost a Christian, or halfway a Christian. I don't think that's something you can be, or Christian adjacent, or something like that, just because he has more conservative values, right, and so another reasoning behind that this one is really stunning when I heard this is the Jordan believes that God is the ultimate fictional character. Okay, so I want to go to two different points in the same video, the same interview with Alex O'Connor, where he says that Even God, it's like well, god's immaterial and outside of time and space.
Jordan Peterson:So if your definition of real is material things in the domain of time and space, then we're not talking about the same thing. Now, usually people approach that question of belief with some materialistic framework like that in mind, even if they don't know it. The Christians, let's say, who put this question forward in the hope of getting the answer they want to hear, are materialistic and enlightenment minds, even though they don't know it, because they haven't implicated.
Kierstyn St John:He's talking about whether or not God is real and he says well, god exists outside of time and space. So if real things are things that exist within time and space, I don't think that God would be real under your conception of that. Well, first of all, god is Trinitarian and Jesus did exist within time and space. So that's kind of an interesting thing to think about and that's a very complicated thing to think about. But the other thing about this is that I personally don't believe God is fictional, even though he does exist outside of space and time, because a fictional God can't create things. We create fictional things.
Kierstyn St John:People write works of fiction. Fictional characters don't create of their own accord, right? We didn't create God. God created us and God also made himself manifested through the person of Jesus. So if you're going to ask me if I think God is real, I'm going to say yes. Now, yes, he exists outside of time and space. How does that work? I don't know, but what I do know is that a fictional being, a non-real God, being a non-real God, can't create things, can't create the world, can't certainly speak to Moses through a burning bush. You know, we have record in the Bible of God speaking of God revealing himself to various people throughout, time and again, of God being made manifest through the person of Christ. So that's not a fictional character, right? I also want to go to where he says that exact thing in this video.
Jordan Peterson:One of the things you pointed to in the analysis that you did the talk I had with Jonathan Paggio is my somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment that God is the ultimate fictional character.
Alex O'Connor:Yes.
Jordan Peterson:Which I think is a hilarious line by the way.
Alex O'Connor:Yeah.
Kierstyn St John:I think that's a blasphemous line. I don't know how funny it is. I mean, it doesn't strike me as funny. And you believe in the historic resurrection of Christ, but you say that God is a fictional character Interesting.
Jordan Peterson:And this is part of this underlying materialist, atheist, enlightenment ethos. People think that fiction and fact are opposites. It's like, no, they're not, not at all Okay. So let's use an analogy to begin with. What's more real, things or numbers? Okay, now, I'm not going to make a case for either of those positions, I'm just saying that's an actual question. You talk to mathematicians. They think well, numbers are way more real than things. Things are evanescent, they disappear, they flash in and out of existence. Numbers are permanent. And then you could think about it biologically.
Kierstyn St John:It's like, well, how useful is numeracy to survival? Like very right, when you become numerate you're powerful in a way that the mere grip you have mean. He argues that numbers are incredibly important. Are things not important? I mean it's a little silly to say, coming out of my mouth, in terms of which one is more real. Numbers describe a reality, but if somebody is like, can you touch the number seven? I mean I could draw the number seven, I suppose, and put my finger on that no-transcript.
Kierstyn St John:It sounds very smart, but I guess what he's saying is that God is the equivalent of numbers. So God is real in this, like very meta sense, but God isn't real in the sense that you would think of as real. And he says that by calling him a fictional character. Yeah, it's just really odd. Like I don't think you would find any sort of Orthodox Christian in any denomination saying that God is a fictional character. I mean that's talking like an atheist, and I think Alex O'Connor, who is an atheist, would likely agree with that. Okay, and then the final reason why I don't think that Jordan Peterson is a Christian or is advocating for Christianity, and if anything is being deceptive on it, is that he misconstrues the purpose of Jesus. So I want to play this last clip. It's a little longer but I think it's important.
Alex O'Connor:I'm also. I'm quite interested actually, how I mean you're obviously quite attracted to Christianity and the Christian story, I mean you keep Jesus on your jacket, but I'm interested how that.
Kierstyn St John:True in what sense? Jordan? Because you said God is a fictional character and so again, his definition of true is not how most people would define true. I think that's important to keep in mind.
Alex O'Connor:I'm interested how that dovetails with your insistence on personal responsibility as the way to live a proper and meaningful life, given that the story of Jesus is one of vicarious redemption, I sort of throw my sins on him. You know he takes responsibility for the sins that I've committed.
Jordan Peterson:Yeah, well, I, you know, I'm.
Alex O'Connor:I wonder how those go together.
Jordan Peterson:Well, I'm. What, would you say.
Alex O'Connor:No, Jesus will clean up your room for you.
Jordan Peterson:It's really good to have a divine ally, and I think the more unerringly you aim upward, the more you walk with God, and that does mean that Christ is beside you, and so that is a reflection of the truth of vicarious redemption. But that doesn't mean you have nothing to do Right, and Christ makes that very clear in the Gospels Not everyone who says Lord, lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. Right, only those who do the will of my Father.
Jordan Peterson:You must be willing to hate your brother and your father. Well, there's a tension there, because the vicarious redemption idea is a reflection of the mercy of God. It's like if you and I believe this to be the case as I said, if your aim is upward, then God is your ally, right, and so he's there with you bearing the cross. But you're still obliged to carry it right. And you see that in the story too. That's embedded in the passion story, because there's an insistence in traditional Christianity that the suffering and the death that a man would experience in that situation were real, despite the fact that God was also experiencing it right. So there's this duality, and I think that's reflected in the idea of vicarious redemption. When it's understood properly, it's like yes, you'll have. Here's another way of thinking about it is that if you aim upward unerringly, you have the spirit of what's good. What are you saying? You've established a relationship with the spirit of what's the highest good. Well then, that's with you, and that's not just a reality, it's like the ultimate reality.
Kierstyn St John:Okay. So there's a lot there and some of it I actually agree with. I do agree that you have responsibility, this idea that I mean Jesus paid it all. Jesus paid the penalty for your sins, all Jesus paid the penalty for your sins, but you still have to repent and believe. And then do we go on sinning? You know, now that we have become Christians, can we just feel like we can sin freely whenever we want? By no means. Paul says right, and so I agree with Jordan Peterson in that regard.
Kierstyn St John:But I don't think that Jesus is like some divine ally, some divine buddy. You know what I mean. The purpose of Jesus is that he is God. It's not just someone who's nice for us to have around. Our purpose is to revolve around him. It's not his purpose to be our buddy. It's our purpose to worship and glorify and devote our lives to him, not only because he saved us, but also because he is God incarnate, god in the flesh, and God deserves the worship of every single human who has ever lived, and I think it is really important to make that distinction. Now we do have to carry our crosses quote unquote as Christians, and that means denying our flesh and our fleshly desires every day and saying yes to what God has commanded of us and yes, the Holy Spirit, which is part of the Trinity, helps us to do that. But I want to guard against this false type of Christianity where Jesus is there in service of us, where Jesus is our ally, and often Jesus is just a political ally that people can use to get Christians to vote for their candidate.
Kierstyn St John:Now, I'm not saying Jordan Peterson's necessarily doing that, but that isn't the purpose of Jesus. Okay, the end isn't winning politically and the end isn't Jesus being someone who's in your corner, where you are the center of the story. No, he is the center, he deserves all the glory. The end is Christ himself and his sacrifice on the cross. When we go to heaven, the beauty of heaven, the ultimate joy, the ultimate prize of heaven is that we will be there with God. Period Doesn't mean there aren't going to be other great things about heaven, but those are ancillary, those aren't the main thing. So again, I think Jordan Peterson misconstrues the purpose of and this idea that if you just aim upward and you aim towards the highest good, that you're going to be fine, like that's not the gospel, that's not Christianity. The idea is that we have already failed at doing that and that is what Jesus was able to do for us and that he deserves all of the praise and glory because of that. That is the gospel, right, and this sounds kind of nice, but it's not the gospel. So what is the takeaway? What is the ultimate takeaway?
Kierstyn St John:For these four reasons, I am not saying that there's nothing we can learn from Jordan Peterson. There is. He's a super smart guy again, but if you're a Christian, make sure you're very discerning and check everything he says against scripture itself. Be really careful, because he's extremely good at talking and seems like a very nice guy. He probably is, and it's very easy to think that everything that comes out of his mouth is wise and true. He comes off that way. But if you aren't a professing christian which, again for reasons I explained, I don't think jordan peterson is I'm going to be very careful to check everything you say against the Bible. Right, that's what it means to be sola scriptura at the end of the day is that the Bible is the final authority.
Kierstyn St John:And finally, I do pray for Jordan Peterson's soul. Again, this is a lot simpler than he makes it. There's a reason that Jesus is constantly bringing the gospel and faith back to children. Have faith like a child, and I do think he's trying to over intellectualize everything. Once you have enough reason to believe, right, once you've thought through all the options and come to the conclusion that Christianity is most plausible and Christianity is the most compelling which it seems like he has, because he says that he thinks that the resurrection occurred you have to stop thinking and just believe that. You can't, you, when you make that final leap of faith. You can't think your way there. You just have to trust at some point. And I don't think he's made that transition and that's why, although I really do like Jordan Peterson I really do I remain skeptical and I pray that you guys do as well. Okay, guys, that's gonna be it for me today. Thank you and God bless.